Full Transcript
Charles: A couple of years ago, I listened to your Mahayana Mind Training podcasts, and I thought, “This is great,” and I started doing taking and sending. Then I got sick, so I did more taking and sending, and I got sicker. I had to have surgery, I had complications from surgery. So I stopped doing taking and sending and eventually I got better. [Laughter]
Ken: I have a slight issue with your notion of causality here. [Laughter]
Charles: Well, actually that’s what my question is about. In that podcast you say taking and sending can’t hurt you. That’s magical thinking, okay? [Laughter] But now, when you present mahamudra, right—
Ken: Mahamudra can’t hurt you either. [Laughs]
Charles: That’s fine. You make this distinction between the world of shared experience and the world of actual experience. So the world of shared experience is the way most people relate to their lives. In the world of actual experience, there’s no inside and outside, there’s nothing grounding experience, there’s no other people, like a dream. Now, if I’m in a dream and I think about an elephant, very likely a dream elephant is going to appear. So if that’s the way things are, it seems like magical thinking would be a totally reasonable way to approach my life. Another way— [Peals of laughter]
Ken: You have some fans now. [Laughter]
Charles: And let me give you another way to get to the same point. [Laughter]
Ken: You’re sounding awfully like some other Buddhist scholars I know right now. They present me with six arguments and then say, “All the same point,” two of which contradict each other. And then say, “What do you think?” [Laughter] Keep going.
Charles: Okay so, I’m about to finish.
Ken: Oh but don’t announce it. You’ve got to work up to a nice climax. [Laughter]
Charles: Right. If you don’t even know that I have feelings, because I could be just an appearance in your dream, how can you possibly know that taking and sending won’t hurt me? [Peals of laughter]
Student: I so want to hear the answer.
Ken: So have you seen Airbender 3? Oh, it’s a pity, that’s me. Airbender 3. It’s a kid’s movie, magical stuff. [Laughter] Where shall I start Charles? Everything is a dream, right? That’s what you said.
Charles: That’s what you said. [Laughter]
Ken: But you seem to be accepting this thesis. I mean, your argument about what happened to you with taking and sending sounded like you have adopted that point of view.
Charles: Actually, I see two ways to go. And I’m not personally sure which way.
Ken: Okay, go for it.
Charles: One way is you go for this idealist understanding of emptiness where everything literally is a dream. And then I think it’s hard to avoid going to something like a traditional Tibetan world picture, where spirits and yidams appear to people. And there’s divination and magic all over the place and, yeah, that’s one way. Another way is, come up with a different interpretation of emptiness like say, Gelugpa Madhyamaka, that doesn’t have this kind of consequence.
Ken: What do you mean, the Gelugpa Madhyamaka Prasangika doesn’t have this kind of consequence?
Charles: So far as I can tell, and it’s kind of a hard view to understand, on that view, the object, the physical object, exists in relation to the thought that knows it. The thought exists in relation to the physical object that knows it. They’re mutually interdependent. Whereas if the world is a dream, there’s nothing standing behind experience. There’s no ground. That seems to me to be a very different picture. In the picture where the world is a dream, literally, the mind event exists, but it’s empty. The physical object is completely non-existent. It’s just not there. And the way of understanding emptiness that I find in Tsongkhapa, they’re both there and they’re mutually interdependent, so neither of them is real. That’s not the same, so far as I can tell.
Ken: Hmm. What? So I have to pose a question here. Do you want me to answer your question from where I was at the time those recordings were made, or do you want me to answer the question from where I am now? [Laughs]
Charles: From where you are now, please.
Ken: Oh, okay. You are trying to determine the ontological status of experience. What did Nagarjuna have to say about that? [Commenting to the other students at the retreat] I can ask him that question because I know he knows.
Charles: Everybody who reads Nagarjuna has a different take on that.
Ken: What’s your take? What did Nagarjuna say about trying to determine the ontological status of experience?
Charles: You think Nagarjuna said something directly about that question [laughter] because you think chos (pron. chö) should be translated as “experience.” So far as I can tell, if you translate chos as experience, you go right to the idealist view, so I’m not prepared to concede that that translation is correct.
Ken: How would you like to translate dharma?
Charles: Well, I still kind of like “phenomenon,” [laughter] actually, but let’s just translate it as “what arises.”
Ken: Oh, I’m happy with that. Okay. So, what did Nagarjuna have to say about trying to determine the ontological status of what arises?
Charles: What the text says is, in effect, if you say it exists, that’s a mistake. If you say it doesn’t exist, that’s a mistake. If you say both, that’s a mistake. If you say neither, that’s a mistake.
Ken: Yes. So, what do you conclude from this?
Charles: How about this? That nothing stands on its own. That everything exists—
Ken: No, that’s not the question. The question is, from Nagarjuna’s point of view, what possibilities are there for determining the ontological status of experience? You said that if you say it exists, that’s a mistake. If you say it doesn’t exist, that’s a mistake. If you say it exists and it doesn’t exist, that’s a mistake, and if you say it neither exists nor doesn’t exist, that’s a mistake. That’s classic four gates. So, what do you conclude from this?
Charles: Suppose we conclude that it’s impossible. We can’t determine the ontological status of what arises.
Ken: Exactly. But that’s exactly what you were trying to do.
Charles: When you say that this is a dream aren’t you making a statement about the ontological status of what arises?
Ken: No. [Laughter]
Charles: Help me understand why not.
Ken: The reason I’m going into this in this detail is because it’s very, very important. Our way of thinking, largely in the West—though I’m not as conversant in French, German, and Italian, and other languages as I am in English—but our language and our way of thinking is largely ontologically based. Everything in Buddhism is experientially or epistemologically based. So, “everything is a dream” is an instruction. It’s not a statement about how things are. It’s an instruction. And it’s an instruction to say, “experience everything as a dream.” In my own understanding I’ve come to really appreciate Nagarjuna saying to just forget about trying to determine the status of what you experience. It’s impossible—you always end up in a rat’s nest.
What you can do is train yourself to experience things differently. And that is exactly what one’s doing, as far as I can tell, in all Buddhist practice, whether Theravadan, Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana. Whether it’s particular techniques like taking and sending, or the shamatha/vipashyana, mahamudra sequence. Or Vajrayana with the yidam practices and the energy transformation techniques and the six yogas, and so forth. Not one bit of it is about knowing what is true, even though that kind of vocabulary crops up all the time. It’s about experiencing things differently. Experiencing things in a way, as I said the first evening, so that we don’t struggle with experience. And it becomes quite extraordinary.
So, we go back to your experience with taking and sending. When one is ill, a way to experience that is to approach it in the instructions of Mahayana mind training. Which is to say, here’s the suffering that is arising. I’m ill, may all the illness and unhappiness and pain and misery of all beings come into me and may my happiness, health and understanding go to all beings. What actually happens to you there, that is, the progression of the illness, that’s not affected by the practice, it’s affected by a lot of other factors. But the way that you experience the illness changes very significantly because you no longer fight it. And so even though one is quite ill, one is clear and at peace. Now, clearly you had quite a significant medical condition and it kept unfolding and required greater and greater levels of intervention. But to ascribe that to this way of training your experience, is a classical example of magical thinking.
We often, I think, approach practice with the idea that, “If I know the truth, then I will be at peace.” It was quite a startling realization for me to recognize that that was completely wrong. Wrong on many counts. The most important one being, there is no truth, which is said in Buddhism time and time again in various more elaborate ways. So this business about knowing the truth is a complete pipe dream. And what I began to appreciate ... this particular formulation doesn’t come from me, but it comes from a previously rather obscure professor of economics at the London School of Economics—obscure until he wrote a certain book that got him into all kinds of hot water in England—but it’s a very good book.
Religions are not claims to truth, but ways of learning to live with what we cannot know. Okay, and we don’t know how long we’re going to live. We don’t know when we’re going to die. We don’t know how our life is going to unfold five years from now or even tomorrow. How do we live with that? There is no way of knowing, because stuff happens. We think we can have everything nicely ordered and in place and something happens and everything’s turned upside down. Well, what happens in Buddhist practice is that we train ourselves to open to whatever arises. That’s what we’re training ourselves to do. So we experience the world in a very, very different way. We don’t experience the world in terms of expectations and goals and achievements and things like that. It is a radically different way of experiencing things and it gives us the ability to meet whatever arises with a certain degree of equanimity, say, and warmth, joy and understanding, as in compassion. You’re very familiar with these.
So I think it’s very, very important for us at this point to understand this is about experiencing things differently. Now, there are experiences which arise. There you sit and the mind becomes still. “Mind” means the way we experience things—so let’s get rid of the word “mind” for a few moments. The way that we experience things becomes very still and open, and in that stillness and openness there’s no experience of something other. Does this mean that there is no I and no other? No, it is a way of experiencing. But that way of experiencing makes such a difference and is so profound and so impactful that people label it as “the truth,” when actually it’s just another way of experiencing. Not only do they label it as the truth, they celebrate it. And one of the most elaborate celebrations of it is the Avatamsaka Sutra, which is like a thousand pages, celebrating impermanence as change and the joy of change, and suffering as opening into the intensity or bliss of experience, and emptiness as the interdependence of everything, so that we’re all connected. Just thousands of pages of celebration.
Student: What sutra? Avatamsa?
Ken: Avatamsaka. It’s been translated into English a couple of times, I think, Flower Garland or the Flower Wreath Sutra. But there are many, many others. The Prajnaparamita, The Perfection of Wisdom in 100,000 Lines is a celebration of this. “You can’t say anything about anything!” And it just goes on for a hundred thousand things because they’re just blown away by this!
And then the human mind, somebody, says, “This is how things are.” Somebody else says, “That’s the truth.” And now the fixation comes and that screws everything up, as we know, time and time again. And so you get Saraha coming along and saying, “Oh, those who believe in reality are stupid, like cows, but those who believe in unreality, they’re even stupider.” [Laughter] And he’s absolutely right, because they’ve moved from this way of experiencing things to saying, “This is how things are.”